1 00:00:02,100 --> 00:00:08,820 [Music] 2 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:17,799 Okay, 3 00:00:14,559 --> 00:00:17,799 I get 4 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:32,850 [Music] 5 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:40,480 Welcome to a special edition of Sputnik 6 00:00:38,239 --> 00:00:43,200 orbiting the world with me George 7 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:45,840 Galloway. Gatri is away, the birth of 8 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:48,000 our second child being imminent, God 9 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,960 willing, and she'll be back in due 10 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,160 course. This is a special edition 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,879 because, as you can see behind me, we 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:59,600 are at Westminster. If you look closely, 13 00:00:56,879 --> 00:01:03,359 you'll see the flag at half mass. You'll 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:07,439 see the helicopter circling. You'll even 15 00:01:03,359 --> 00:01:11,360 hear a siren or two because this this 16 00:01:07,439 --> 00:01:14,240 week was the site of a vicious cowardly 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:17,040 terrorist attack which mowed down 18 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:20,560 innocent civilians on the Westminster 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:23,040 Bridge over my shoulder, killing women, 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:26,400 injuring people in significant numbers, 21 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:29,840 even throwing one woman over the wall 22 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:33,600 and into the river a long way beneath 23 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:36,560 her. She was fished out alive. Others 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:39,600 were not successfully saved. A 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:42,960 policeman, one that I knew in the House 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:46,240 of Commons, lost his life defending the 27 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:50,399 House of Commons and democracy itself 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:54,560 from an assault by a crazed man bearing 29 00:01:50,399 --> 00:01:57,439 a large knife about which more later. 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:02:01,439 Because my very special guest for this 31 00:01:57,439 --> 00:02:05,040 special Sputnik is Peter Ford, formerly 32 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:08,560 Britain's ambassador to Syria and to 33 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:12,560 Bahrain, an expert in the Middle East, 34 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:16,160 an expert on the swamp of bitterness 35 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,879 from which all of this has emerged. I'm 36 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:22,480 very glad to say he joins me now on the 37 00:02:18,879 --> 00:02:24,879 Sputnik. Peter, let me start by saying 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:27,520 that just a few short years ago in the 39 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:30,319 building behind me, I was trapped in a 40 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:34,239 lift with the then foreign secretary 41 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:36,160 William Hey. Imagine his constonation. 42 00:02:34,239 --> 00:02:38,640 Trapped in a lift with me, unable to 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:41,120 move, just him and me. And I said this 44 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:43,120 to him. William, you've been wrong 45 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:45,599 before. In fact, you've been wrong most 46 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,400 of your life. But you've never been 47 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:52,319 insane before. The policy you're 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:55,200 following in Syria is literally insane. 49 00:02:52,319 --> 00:03:00,160 Why? Because the encouraging of young 50 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:04,239 men with knives to go and fight in Syria 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:08,159 is insane. Not just of itself, but 52 00:03:04,239 --> 00:03:11,680 because one day those men will be back 53 00:03:08,159 --> 00:03:15,519 with their knives in this building 54 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:19,280 looking for you and looking for me. And 55 00:03:15,519 --> 00:03:21,040 yesterday I watched it all come true in 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:25,360 front of my eyes. What were your 57 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:28,560 thoughts as that news was breaking? 58 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:32,879 Well, you were obviously very precient, 59 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:35,599 George, and I I was uh shocked of course 60 00:03:32,879 --> 00:03:38,879 by the u events. Uh and then I was 61 00:03:35,599 --> 00:03:42,640 surprised by the reaction of our prime 62 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:45,519 minister. she saw fit to say that this 63 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:49,280 was an attack on our values 64 00:03:45,519 --> 00:03:51,840 uh that we would hold fast to our normal 65 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:55,120 lives. What gave her the right to make 66 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:58,319 this false interpretation of the 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:01,360 terrorist incident? Why did she not 68 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:04,239 accept that there was a clear link with 69 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:07,599 our own policies in the the Middle East? 70 00:04:04,239 --> 00:04:10,799 Yesterday was was it coincidence? 71 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:13,519 Probably not. a meeting in Washington of 72 00:04:10,799 --> 00:04:16,239 all the great powers arranged against 73 00:04:13,519 --> 00:04:19,120 ISIS. Boris Johnson was there. Was it 74 00:04:16,239 --> 00:04:21,840 just coincidence? I doubt it. Was it 75 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:26,320 just coincidence that this week has seen 76 00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:29,520 the bombing in Mosul reach uh a climax 77 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:32,000 with hundreds of people being killed, 78 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:35,360 most of them civilians, far more than 79 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:39,440 were killed in Aleppo. Surely what 80 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:43,120 happened was a reflection of these 81 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:47,199 political events in which we had a part 82 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:50,800 in the Middle East. Uh she appeared to 83 00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:53,520 be trying to put up a smoke screen about 84 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:56,560 values and all that to disguise the fact 85 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:59,840 that politicians have taken decisions 86 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,479 which have caused or brought about 87 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:05,680 brought these chickens home to roost. 88 00:05:02,479 --> 00:05:07,680 Some of us pointed out a year ago when 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:10,320 the decision was made to start bombing 90 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:13,759 Syria that sooner or later there would 91 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:17,120 be a price to pay. Now the government 92 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:20,400 want to hide this fact from the the 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:23,840 public. Uh and I I think it's 94 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:26,560 disgraceful. Her remarks were fatuous. 95 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:29,199 She owes it to the public to level with 96 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:32,639 them to say that we the government think 97 00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:35,680 it's worthwhile. pos arguably it is 98 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:38,080 worthwhile but be honest about it that 99 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,400 this these are chickens coming home to 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:43,199 roost. This is the price we've got to be 101 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:45,680 ready to pay if we want to indulge our 102 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:47,280 British pens for bombing countries in 103 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,440 the Middle East. 104 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:51,840 I think that's very powerfully put. 105 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:56,400 We'll come back in a moment to the fact 106 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:59,120 that there is a real uh problem of 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:03,199 fanaticism and extremism 108 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:05,680 on the fringes of Islam. Uh I know it uh 109 00:06:03,199 --> 00:06:10,960 well I've been up close and personal 110 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:14,960 with it. They've tried to uh kill me. Uh 111 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:18,000 but there seems little doubt that the 112 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:22,400 incident yesterday and other incidents 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:26,000 like it in Nice, in Paris, in Brussels, 114 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:29,680 in Berlin, in Germany. Uh these 115 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,919 incidents are of course connected to the 116 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,000 foreign policy of the West in the Middle 117 00:06:31,919 --> 00:06:36,160 East. I don't think there's any sentient 118 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:38,319 being out there who doubts that. It's 119 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:42,160 only the politicians and their media 120 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:47,280 echo chamber uh who like to try to uh 121 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:51,120 deny it. Let's take Syria uh for for our 122 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:52,720 first example. Britain, your friends, 123 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,759 uh, former friends in the British 124 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:59,759 Foreign Office have willfully followed a 125 00:06:55,759 --> 00:07:03,199 policy these last five years nearly of 126 00:06:59,759 --> 00:07:06,639 supporting people whose allegiance is to 127 00:07:03,199 --> 00:07:08,880 al-Qaeda and ISIS. In other words, 128 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:11,039 sending the message that it's all right 129 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:14,800 for ISIS and al-Qaeda to murder people 130 00:07:11,039 --> 00:07:18,479 in Syria, to cut the throats of priests 131 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:22,639 in Syria whilst 132 00:07:18,479 --> 00:07:25,599 feigning outrage when the same kind of 133 00:07:22,639 --> 00:07:28,479 people motivated by the same mindset do 134 00:07:25,599 --> 00:07:30,080 the same kind of things here. That 135 00:07:28,479 --> 00:07:32,800 contradiction is too great to be 136 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,599 ignored. 137 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:39,120 Absolutely. And this policy continues to 138 00:07:35,599 --> 00:07:44,000 to this day. Uh the government continued 139 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:47,199 to demonize Assad as a butcher and then 140 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:49,759 express or feain surprise when Muslim 141 00:07:47,199 --> 00:07:52,560 youths in this country take it seriously 142 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:56,400 and want to go out and do jihad against 143 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:58,560 the butcher. Uh David Cameron could be 144 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:01,680 sued by some of these youths for breach 145 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,960 of promise, I think. Um, and to this 146 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,039 day, just just two days ago, the 147 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:11,039 spokeswoman in the House of Lords, 148 00:08:07,039 --> 00:08:13,840 Baroness Anel, uh, said that the British 149 00:08:11,039 --> 00:08:16,479 government are supporting moderates such 150 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,759 as, uh, those currently fighting the 151 00:08:16,479 --> 00:08:22,879 government in the suburbs of Damascus, 152 00:08:19,759 --> 00:08:27,039 known as the Eastern Rout. Well, even 153 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:29,919 opposition sources recognize that the 154 00:08:27,039 --> 00:08:33,120 fighters in eastern Ghuta are led by 155 00:08:29,919 --> 00:08:35,279 Anusra, which is the al-Qaeda affiliate. 156 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:38,640 They're leading a campaign which is 157 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:42,080 tellingly called worshippers of God come 158 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:46,640 together and resist the butcher. 159 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:50,080 uh I rest my case. We are 160 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:53,839 giving materials and and moral support 161 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:58,240 to the kind of people in Syria that we 162 00:08:53,839 --> 00:09:02,640 abhore as vile terrorists in London. 163 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:05,360 this all uh started uh didn't all start 164 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:08,399 but the approximate cause of what we 165 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:13,760 look at today is the invasion and 166 00:09:08,399 --> 00:09:15,440 occupation of Iraq which you knew I knew 167 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,800 almost everybody in the foreign office 168 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:20,800 knew was a very bad idea and we now know 169 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,839 from Chilcot that almost everyone across 170 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,480 the river there in the security services 171 00:09:23,839 --> 00:09:28,880 uh knew would be a bad idea knew would 172 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:32,399 have the dread dreadful consequences and 173 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:35,600 blowback that it uh did yet the 174 00:09:32,399 --> 00:09:38,399 government proceeded with it. We could 175 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:41,839 put that down to an aberration, the 176 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:44,480 Blair aberration, if it had not been 177 00:09:41,839 --> 00:09:48,880 repeated all over again and again, first 178 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:52,720 in Libya and then in Syria. What is it 179 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:56,640 about Britain uh that propels it into 180 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:59,040 this perpetual succession of attacks and 181 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:01,600 occupations of other people's lands? 182 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,600 Well, how long have you got George? 183 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:07,200 For you any length of time. 184 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,880 Uh briefly, uh two reasons. It's a 185 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:14,640 postimperial 186 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:17,279 instinct, a spasm to uh wreak mayhem in 187 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:20,560 um the countries of the brown people. 188 00:10:17,279 --> 00:10:23,519 And secondly, it's cowtowing to America. 189 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:25,279 Uh both those factors came heavily into 190 00:10:23,519 --> 00:10:28,079 play in 191 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:29,120 and arguably we were we were pushing the 192 00:10:28,079 --> 00:10:32,399 Americans 193 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:35,519 in in in indeed u we were egged on by 194 00:10:32,399 --> 00:10:39,839 the uh the French uh which would have 195 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:44,079 been a a repeat of the the Suez fiasco. 196 00:10:39,839 --> 00:10:46,800 Um we almost uh repeated it in Syria. 197 00:10:44,079 --> 00:10:52,640 You'll recall in 2013 198 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:55,920 uh the u commons uh bravely some a 199 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:58,560 number of brave MPs voted against a 200 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:02,320 Mosha government motion to start bombing 201 00:10:58,560 --> 00:11:04,320 the Syrian army. Thank God. And that 202 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:08,480 changed history. 203 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:11,440 Many saw this as as as as a lapse by 204 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Britain that we were not standing up for 205 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:17,519 uh western uh values. Um but on the 206 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:20,560 contrary it it was 207 00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:22,160 a last 208 00:11:20,560 --> 00:11:24,480 spasm 209 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,279 of good sense from our parliament and 210 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:31,440 politicians. I spoke in that debate 211 00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:34,240 along with in fact right after uh the uh 212 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:36,079 late Gerald Kaufman uh there were four 213 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,440 speeches in the middle of the debate. 214 00:11:36,079 --> 00:11:42,079 Two Tories two on the opposition side. I 215 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:45,120 feel that we played a part in winning 216 00:11:42,079 --> 00:11:47,839 that very slim majority and it did 217 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:50,640 change history. But they returned for 218 00:11:47,839 --> 00:11:55,200 more, didn't they? Uh not this time to 219 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:57,680 bomb the Syrian army, but purportedly to 220 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:00,399 bomb the people who are fighting the 221 00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:03,760 Syrian army. What was that about? How 222 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:05,839 did that contradiction emerge? 223 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,399 Uh well, I think uh the government 224 00:12:05,839 --> 00:12:12,639 probably felt under pressure from the 225 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:16,480 Americans to join the uh the campaign in 226 00:12:12,639 --> 00:12:19,120 in Syria. You you'll recall that ISIS 227 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:22,480 became more and more powerful in Syria 228 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:25,120 in 2014 2015. 229 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:27,839 Um I think the government felt that that 230 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,760 they had to do their their bit by 231 00:12:27,839 --> 00:12:34,880 America. As always, it's about us um 232 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,839 playing uh the role of trustee left 233 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:41,200 tenant or if you like tonto which in 234 00:12:37,839 --> 00:12:44,000 Spanish means stupid. Uh that is our uh 235 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:46,800 our role. 236 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,040 That is a fantastic note to end the 237 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,040 first half of the show. The good news is 238 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,639 you've agreed to stay with us for the 239 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:57,279 second. Peter Ford, ambassador uh for 240 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:59,839 Britain in Syria and other Middle 241 00:12:57,279 --> 00:13:02,839 Eastern countries. Be right back after 242 00:12:59,839 --> 00:13:02,839 this. 243 00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:07,120 [Music] 244 00:13:05,279 --> 00:13:08,800 Welcome back to Sputnik orbiting the 245 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,600 World with me, George Galloway, and 246 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:14,560 Peter Ford, former British ambassador in 247 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,760 Damascus, in Bahrain, and a specialist 248 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:20,079 in the Arab Middle East, and in the uh 249 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,480 broader Muslim world. And it's about 250 00:13:20,079 --> 00:13:25,200 that that we're talking with Parliament 251 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:28,240 behind us in the week that saw yet 252 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:32,480 another terrorist attack on civilian 253 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:35,120 people in the streets and outside the 254 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,760 parliament building itself. Peter, 255 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:40,160 thanks uh very much for staying. Uh 256 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:44,160 terrorism exists. It's a real thing. 257 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:46,720 It's not false flags. It's not Israelis 258 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,680 dressed up as Muslims or any of the 259 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:53,040 other nonsensical conspiracy theories. 260 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:55,519 It exists. Extremists exist in the 261 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:57,760 Muslim community. Western governments 262 00:13:55,519 --> 00:13:59,600 have done their best to inflate it, but 263 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:03,040 there have always been the Wahhabist 264 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:05,199 mentality, hundreds of years old, is 265 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,560 pretty extreme and encourages uh 266 00:14:05,199 --> 00:14:10,160 extremism. As long as this extremism is 267 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:13,120 growing and there's a a clear and 268 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:18,160 present danger, uh how do we defend 269 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:20,000 ourselves here in Britain against it? 270 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,880 Well, the first thing is to stop making 271 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:28,720 the situation worse. Uh you touched on 272 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:32,800 it u just now. Um we we have to stop 273 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:36,720 um en encouraging the flow of of young 274 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:39,440 potential jihadis from this country. uh 275 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:43,839 by and we are encouraging it by 276 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:46,880 demonizing the Assad government. Uh 277 00:14:43,839 --> 00:14:48,720 David Cameron kept calling Assad a 278 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:52,079 butcher. So it's not surprising his 279 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,399 young men go out there. Um that's the 280 00:14:52,079 --> 00:14:57,680 first thing. We should stop uh making it 281 00:14:54,399 --> 00:15:01,040 worse. Um we should also stop making it 282 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:04,560 worse by trying to overthrow the secular 283 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:08,160 government of Syria. This is absolutely 284 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,760 inane, George. It it absolutely inane 285 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,920 that 286 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,920 you could say see looking across the 287 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,160 sweep of the Middle East that whenever 288 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,519 we see a secular government, we try to 289 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:18,480 overthrow it. 290 00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:23,600 It's extraordinary. 291 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:27,519 Iraq, um, Tunisia, uh, Egypt, Libya, uh, 292 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:30,160 Syria, all had secular governments and 293 00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:31,760 we paved the way for Islamist 294 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,839 extremists. 295 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,480 Fortunately, in in Syria, we haven't 296 00:15:33,839 --> 00:15:39,040 been totally successful, but we have 297 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,199 been instrumental in causing this wave 298 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,519 of jihadism. 299 00:15:41,199 --> 00:15:43,760 Um, 300 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:46,480 is that stupidity or is there a cunning 301 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,639 plan of which I I don't have the 302 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:51,279 capacity to work out. 303 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:53,360 I certainly don't think it's a cunning 304 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:55,920 uh uh plan. I don't think the foreign 305 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,839 office is up to a cunning plan. 306 00:15:55,920 --> 00:16:00,320 More Austin Powers than James. 307 00:15:57,839 --> 00:16:04,320 Exactly. Exactly. Since my day anyway. 308 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:06,079 Indeed. Um I I I think there's a failure 309 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,480 of analysis 310 00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:12,160 uh a failure to recognize the phenomenon 311 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,320 for what it is which is mainly Sunni 312 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,800 revanchism 313 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:20,399 specifically Sunni it's not Islamist 314 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,160 extremism it's Sunni Islamist extremism 315 00:16:20,399 --> 00:16:25,600 99.9% 316 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:29,040 of the acts of terror carried out in 317 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:32,880 Iraq uh uh Syria and the West are 318 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:36,639 carried out by Sunni extremists. Um, but 319 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:38,160 it's taboo to mention this partly, I 320 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:40,399 suspect, because of course the 321 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:44,079 countries, the rich oil producing 322 00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:46,000 countries of the Gulf are all Sunnis and 323 00:16:44,079 --> 00:16:48,399 therefore we we mustn't go there. We 324 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:53,040 mustn't offend them by saying that it's 325 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:55,920 Sunni extremists who are the the crux of 326 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:59,759 the issue. Uh instead we prefer to 327 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:01,920 demonize Iran which is the Shia 328 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:05,439 predominantly Shia country which has 329 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:07,600 absolutely no hand in any of the 330 00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:10,640 terrorism that we see on our streets. 331 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:14,000 And yet we demonize Iran more than we do 332 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:17,120 Saudi Arabia. We demonize Hezbollah 333 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,720 which is a Lebanese Shia movement 334 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:21,360 militia. 335 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:24,559 uh even though they are helping to keep 336 00:17:21,360 --> 00:17:27,600 the peace in Lebanon, prevent that 337 00:17:24,559 --> 00:17:29,520 country boiling over and are fighting 338 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:34,240 the jihadis 339 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:36,960 who we profess not to like in Syria. We 340 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,559 our analysis is wrong. We're totally 341 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,200 inconsistent. 342 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:44,160 And as always, it comes back to the way 343 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,240 we have to count to the Americans 344 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,600 because the Americans have wanted it 345 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:52,480 this way. we rationalize it so that we 346 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:54,799 can go along with it. It's now going to 347 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:58,640 be very interesting to see if this 348 00:17:54,799 --> 00:18:00,640 calculus changes with with Trump. 349 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,440 They're opening a new chapter of 350 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:06,720 discussion here. But it it it it's 351 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:09,840 feasible that Trump in the coming months 352 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:12,880 will uh tell will will complete his own 353 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:15,760 assessment of the situation in Syria and 354 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,600 Iraq and say, "Hey, it's time we stopped 355 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,919 actively trying to overthrow this 356 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,360 secular regime. We're not going to help 357 00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:25,280 them, but we're just going to stop 358 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:27,919 trying to overthrow them, and you guys 359 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:31,039 need to follow suit at that point." 360 00:18:27,919 --> 00:18:33,520 Maybe common sense will break in on the 361 00:18:31,039 --> 00:18:35,919 foreign office. And number 10, 362 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:39,120 that will be a particular challenge. And 363 00:18:35,919 --> 00:18:41,679 indeed, it will be not since Suez that 364 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:44,559 we will have had an American government 365 00:18:41,679 --> 00:18:46,880 with a more sane foreign policy towards 366 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:50,799 the Middle East than a British 367 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:54,559 government. At least in the 1956 episode 368 00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:58,240 of Suez, Britain was still at least seen 369 00:18:54,559 --> 00:19:03,120 as a a a world power. Now we're actually 370 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:05,840 not. We are uh tonto as you absolutely 371 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,520 memorably put it. We go around the world 372 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,799 threatening everyone with America's 373 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:14,240 army. But if America's army is refocused 374 00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:15,600 and re uh re-evaluated, 375 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,039 that's going to leave the British 376 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,600 foreign office and the British prime 377 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:23,760 minister either up the creek without a 378 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:26,880 paddle uh or having to roll back pretty 379 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:28,880 quickly. Which will it be, do you think? 380 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,880 Uh well, I think the British government 381 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:35,840 are beginning to um negotiate for 382 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:38,400 themselves an exit route on Syria. They 383 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,880 they've started to say, "We think 384 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:44,559 there's no place for Assad in the future 385 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:46,720 of Syria." But if the people of Syria so 386 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:50,080 decide, 387 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:53,360 this is they're leaving themselves 388 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:56,160 wiggle room, I think. And this is new. 389 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:59,280 Peter, it's necessary to defeat ISIS and 390 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:01,679 al-Qaeda, but it's not sufficient. If uh 391 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,720 if one defeats them, they'll be back 392 00:20:01,679 --> 00:20:08,240 under another name and not very 393 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:11,600 longistant afterwards. Uh because the 394 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:14,640 material conditions that have spawned 395 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,919 these extremist phenomenon continue to 396 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:21,280 exist. Indeed, but but the ISIS 397 00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:23,679 themselves are not going to go very far 398 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:26,240 that they will be leaving sleeper cells 399 00:20:23,679 --> 00:20:28,400 that could be reemerge at any point. I 400 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,039 mean, we saw in Syria how they they lost 401 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:34,159 Palmyra and then came back and lost it 402 00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:37,280 again. It's a game of whack-a-ole which 403 00:20:34,159 --> 00:20:40,159 is going uh on here. You whack them in 404 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:43,679 one place and they pop up in another. 405 00:20:40,159 --> 00:20:48,000 And uh this is very hard to get on top 406 00:20:43,679 --> 00:20:52,000 of. Um already we see signs that uh ISIS 407 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:56,080 are moving camp to southern Syria and 408 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:59,280 indeed to the Golan even where they can 409 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:02,159 suck with their Israeli friends uh in an 410 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,240 interesting uh de facto alliance. 411 00:21:02,159 --> 00:21:07,520 It's quite a pantomime horse that one. 412 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,360 Yes. Uh uh but but you're right uh 413 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:14,640 there's uh clear uh examples of the most 414 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:17,840 weird uh arrangements. There's some uh 415 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:22,080 ISIS uh material seized yesterday uh 416 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:24,080 anti-aircraft uh um uh m material which 417 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,760 had clearly come from the United States 418 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:30,559 and it was seized from ISIS in Mosul. 419 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:33,600 So the the weird and wonderful pattern 420 00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:35,760 of relations uh has not gone away. No, 421 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,440 of course you're right. Even ISIS itself 422 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:42,640 will continue uh to exist in one form or 423 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:46,080 another. But isn't it overwhelmingly 424 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:49,280 true that our long support for 425 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:52,000 dictatorship of various kinds in the 426 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:55,120 Middle East has not just dictatorships 427 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:58,159 but failed dictatorships who couldn't 428 00:21:55,120 --> 00:22:00,720 even make the trains run on time has 429 00:21:58,159 --> 00:22:03,200 produced this swamp uh out of which all 430 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:06,640 this comes. 431 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:09,919 Um I'm not sure I'd go along with that. 432 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,000 uh think casting my eye across the the 433 00:22:09,919 --> 00:22:15,360 regimes that would fit that desru des 434 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:18,320 description. I I don't think we had any 435 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:21,360 role in in keeping the Assad 436 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:24,000 government's father and son in power. On 437 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:26,880 the contrary, we've been against uh 438 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,640 Basist rule for many many 439 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,039 We were quite close to Saddam on the 440 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:33,039 other hand. We gave Saddam every 441 00:22:31,039 --> 00:22:35,600 encouragement to attack Iran. 442 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:39,039 And it's certainly true of the regimes 443 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:41,360 in in the Gulf. We propped up regimes in 444 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:42,960 in the Gulf with no thought for 445 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:46,320 consequences 446 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:51,360 and regimes in uh in in Jordan and to 447 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:53,280 some extent Egypt. But um Syria is as in 448 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,520 many things a different case. 449 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,080 It is it's a different kettle of fish 450 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:01,440 altogether. Isn't the center of all of 451 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:03,520 this Saudi Arabia the fountain head, 452 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,880 financial fountain head, ideological, 453 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:10,159 theological fountain head, the the the 454 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:14,480 money uh the treasury of this uh 455 00:23:10,159 --> 00:23:16,000 extremism and yet our 456 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:20,000 monarchs, 457 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,000 ministers and grandees of all kinds have 458 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,080 the closest possible relationship. I I 459 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,559 sat for nearly 30 years in parliament 460 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:28,880 being told by government ministers that 461 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:30,960 Saudi Arabia was our best friend and 462 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,559 closest ally in the Middle East. 463 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,320 Notwithstanding all that I've just said 464 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:38,080 about it, 465 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:41,679 it's it's very sad. Uh I served in Saudi 466 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:44,640 Arabia. I have Saudi friends. uh many 467 00:23:41,679 --> 00:23:48,480 admirable things about how the Saudis 468 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:51,840 have modernized and also we have to 469 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:54,000 understand their internal constraints. 470 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:58,720 Um 471 00:23:54,000 --> 00:24:01,200 had a long history of Wahhabism. Uh some 472 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:04,640 more modernizing governments have tried 473 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:08,240 a little bit to reform. But you're 474 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,799 right. Essentially, Saudi Arabia has not 475 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:15,679 been on the side of the the good guys. 476 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:20,320 Uh Saudi Arabia has given at least um 477 00:24:15,679 --> 00:24:23,360 spiritual support to extremism. 478 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:26,559 Um if if you want to know what life is 479 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:29,760 like in in Raqqa under ISIS, just go to 480 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:32,159 any provincial town in Saudi Arabia. 481 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:35,520 Um, 482 00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:38,000 it it's curious indeed that ISIS have 483 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:42,000 not really turned their attention to 484 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:44,240 Saudi Arabia. Is it because they 485 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,880 they've taken their inspiration from 486 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,039 Saudi? They see nothing to change there? 487 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,080 Is it because they're being paid uh 488 00:24:49,039 --> 00:24:53,679 protection money? Um, that's an 489 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,159 interesting pairing. 490 00:24:53,679 --> 00:24:58,640 Frankly, probably a mixture of all of 491 00:24:56,159 --> 00:25:00,960 those things. You asked me earlier, how 492 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:04,000 long have I got? All I can say to you is 493 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,559 I wish I had longer, but alas, I don't. 494 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:09,919 Peter Ford, former British ambassador to 495 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:12,799 Syria, also uh with the Honora, the 496 00:25:09,919 --> 00:25:14,480 United Nations agency that does so much, 497 00:25:12,799 --> 00:25:16,559 indeed is the only agency that does 498 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,320 anything at all for Palestinian 499 00:25:16,559 --> 00:25:21,039 refugees. It's been an honor, a 500 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,679 privilege to interview you today here on 501 00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:26,159 the Sputnik. That's alas all we've got 502 00:25:23,679 --> 00:25:28,480 time for in this special edition of 503 00:25:26,159 --> 00:25:30,880 Sputnik. Join us again next week. But 504 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,520 meanwhile, let's remember those who were 505 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:37,159 killed or injured in this week's 506 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,159 terrorist attack.